What's the difference between 'piro flip' and 'kaos'?

[heliboy88]

Hi guys,

Anyone knows the difference between piro flips and kaos? And how different are they in execution(stick controls)? I can do ugly 'kaos' and it's not consistent(need more and more practise), but really don't know how the piro flip is executed.
Btw, can some experts here also tell what really is the 'basic' and right way to do kaos? Mine is sometimes all over the place(sky) while doing it, what mistakes have i done? And how to keep the heli in one place while doing it?
Thanks a lot for any advice/tip i can get.
Happy flying to all!

regards,
rich

[toro]

kaos is different from piro flips... piro flips are mistaken forCHAOS due to the look of it.... however with a CHAOS the orientation of the flip changes @ each 90 degrees.... Hard to tell the difference to the untrained eye. You'll notice the heli starting the flip @ different orientations.. for instance tail in piro flip, to nose left piro flip, to nose away piro flip, to nose right piro flip. Standard Piro flips start and end typically in the same aspect IE tail in start finishes flip, and starts @ the finish point....

Clear as mud ?

[Gmoney]

Just the $$$$ involved to perfect either.

G

[John 3D]

The piro-flip is the general term for the maneuver. (Short for pirouette flip) The piro-flip can be done with a full 360 rotation of the tail before flipping. The Chaos is a precision variation of the piro-flip where the heli changes from inverted to normal (or the other way around) every 90 degrees of tail rotation and the rotation of the roll is on the axis of the rotor disk. So the end result is basically a heli piro-flipping in-place at high speed without moving around.

[heliboy88]

Thanks a lot for the heads up guys, i think i've an idea of what a piro flip is, but it's still not understandable thru words of what it really does, have to try and try(in the sim) until i can get a good picture of it. Hope i can get it down in 3 months??

cheers,

[Flyinfool]

If you were to look at only the rotor disk in a piro flip, the disc would simply be doing flips. It is just that the heli is pirouetting while doing the flips.
In a Chaos, the disc is not just doing stationary flips, the direction of the flip would be rotating around on the vertical axis while doing the pirouetting flips.

Your right, it is hard to put into words.

[heliboy88]

Thanks a lot Jeff(Flyinfool), i'm getting close to understand it now:o, still hard to do it for sure:D

regards,

[KaanX]

Looks like I'm doing chaos when trying to do piroflips. My rotor disc is all over the place :P I can't say that it looks like a precision maneuver on my hands dough:)

[Corkscrew]

wow. finally found a decent differentiation for the two maneuvers. thanks. its been a point of debate for quite awhile here.

[red_z06]

however with a CHAOS the orientation of the flip changes @ each 90 degrees....

This would be called a four orientation piro-flip. It is equivalent to flip, roll, flip, roll where the disc rotation axis is parallel to runway then perpendicular, then parellel, and perpendicular again.

If you were to look at only the rotor disk in a piro flip, the disc would simply be doing flips. It is just that the heli is pirouetting while doing the flips.
In a Chaos, the disc is not just doing stationary flips, the direction of the flip would be rotating around on the vertical axis while doing the pirouetting flips.

Good description.

Most people will start out doing chaos unintentionally due to timing errors. What will happen is that (ignoring tail rotation) the disc will look like it is fliping with flipping axis parallel to runway but it will shift to some angle and back and forth. As you get better, you will learn to time and sync the tail position with cyclic input so it will look like the heli disc is simply doing a flip while the tail is constantly pirouetting. As you can piro-flip at will with disc looking like it is only flipping forward, you introduce a tail async so you either slow down the cyclic stir or speed up to deliverately throw off the timing.

When done right, if you draw circle on a paper and glue a stick across it to represent the flipping axis, this axis will slowly rotate CW or CCW depending on the slower or faster rate of cyclic when compared to perfect sync.

Another reason why a seemingly perfect stirring of the cyclic but the heli seems to chaos instead of piro-flip is becuase the heli has different roll and flip rate due to different polar moment of inertial in the roll axis and flip axis. Due to the mass distribution, heli will generally roll faster than flip. So a good piro flip will require stirring motion that looks like a vertically long elipse rather than a perfect circle. You can make your learning easier by reducing the roll rate to match the flip rate. So then the ideal circular motion should create the perfect piro-flip. But, in actuallity, it will deviate from this because you have to compensate for the drift of the heli.

I hope this helps. :)

[John 3D]

The best way to understand the piro-flip (and this took me a long time to figure out) is to picture the heli doing continuous flips without the tail rotating all over the place. Whereas the Chaos is the same except for instead of being continuous flips it constantly alternates between a flip and a roll. (flip, roll, flip, roll, flip ect...)
Now to understand what makes it a piro-flip or a Chaos is that while it is doing these changes from being upright to inverted and then back to upright again, the tail has a constant right or left rudder input. Even though it may not look like it to the untrained eye, it can only be right rudder or left rudder at a time because the cyclic control input has to be reversed to go one way or the other.

[nexgen]

ok now my brain is melting

[DVS]

Does anybody have a video of somebody performing a chaos ?

[John 3D]

Its all about watching the orientation of the rotor disk.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6Pmvg748g&feature=related

[Splix]

Its all about watching the orientation of the rotor disk.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6Pmvg748g&feature=related

Thats about the best explaination right there. Chaos flips looks like pyro flips at first, but 1/2 way through the flip, the heli kinda looks like its reversing itself...ya I know...WHAT?! hah. Just watch vids of pyro flips, then chaos flips over and over back to back, you'll soon see it.

[aaronredbaron]

Curtis Youngblood said it takes him a month of practice to do a Choas. Has anybody ever had a chance to see him do it in person? I have seen him fly several times, but never seen the Choas. I don't think I can say I have ever seen one flown in person, to be honest.

I think this has to be one of the better threads on the topic, there is a bunch of misconception out there. Many people think a Choas is just a really tight continuous piro flip, and since its so rare to see it done right, the term gets diluted by people claiming they can Choas like the best of them, when they may not really understand what it is.

[Hansolo]

When done wrong, your heli & budget would be in chaos.:D

[cat5]

You can actually do it at any degree you wish, hence adding more piroflips per chaos.

[cat5]

I have not seen anyone done it in real life nor on video.

[nexgen]

what sim is that?

[mark fadely]

Here's a pretty good one by an autonomous heli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN6ifrqwIMY

[jones007]

Is there any video with more than 2 pixels on the heli?

--Kevin

[aaronredbaron]

there is a HQ version at youtube, just click double click on the video, and then its in the lover right hand corner. I don't know, I watched this several times and it looks to me like a piro flip with the disk flipping sideways to the camera. Anyone else???

[nexgen]

Chaos or Piro flip, the fact that it did it all by itself is amazing!!

[jones007]

Chaos or Piro flip, the fact that it did it all by itself is amazing!!

With sensors and a control system onboard, in theory it should be able to do it much better than any human. They are getting measured feedback that humans cannot get, and they have an even lower-latency control system to compensate. What the machines don't bring to the table is creativity and innovation. No "new" maneuvers will come out of the Stanford machine, it only knows what Garett Oku knows.

--Kevin